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Post by Major Pain on Nov 23, 2010 1:16:02 GMT 1
DISTANCES AND RANGES
There has been much discussion about Distances and Ranges concerning Blitzkrieg. I decided to do a little investigation into the scale of the units and maps. After extensive research, the following is the results of the analysis.
MAP DISTANCES
First Some Basic Length Data
1 Meter = ~3.281 Feet 1 Meter = ~1.938 Yards 1 Kilometer = 1000 Meters 1 Mile = 5280 Feet
The Map is comprised of Tiles and Squares laid out on a Grid.
1 Tile is based on 3 Meters x 3 Meters.
A Square is best defined as the Unit that the Map is measured by in dimensions. Example: The Map is 25 x 25. This really means the the Map is 25 Squares x 25 Squares.
Within each Square there are 256 Tiles - Arranged 16 x 16.
So if we want to figure the distance of one Square, simply multiply the 3 Meters x 16 tiles, which equals 48 Meters.
1 Square is 48 meters x 48 meters in distance.
Using this formula, 48 m X # Squares, we can compute the Distance in Meters of any map if we know the Map Dimensions.
If you want to compute the distance in Feet, multiply the total Meters x 3.281. You can calculate Yards by Dividing Feet by 3.
Examples Map Sizes:
10 x 10 = 480 M / 1574.8 Feet 15 x 15 = 720 M / 2362.2 Feet 20 x 20 = 960 M / 3149.6 Feet 21 x 21 = 1008 M /3307.0 Feet <------ 1000 Meters = 1 Kilometer 25 x 25 = 1200 M / 3937.0 Feet 30 x 30 = 1440 M / 4724.4 Feet 34 x 34 = 1632 M / 5354.3 Feet <----- 5280 Feet = 1 MILE
So now you have an idea how much SCALED ground you are covering in Battles.
Sight & Weapon Ranges
This required a little more research. The typical BK unit has a sight and weapon range of 30. So what does this 30 mean. 30 is equal to 15 tiles, or about 1.5 Meters or 4.9 Feet per tile.
Based on that a range of 30 would be equivilent to 45 Meters, 147.6 Feet or 49.2 Yards. So if I had to guess, the authors based the Weapons on the effective range of an average shooter out hunting deer in the woods; about 50 yards or 1/2 of a football field. Not impressive, but in a game of this scale, they had to compensate.
So if you wanted to be a bit more realistic based on 100 yards, you would need to adjust the Sight & Weapon Ranges to 61, which would be about 91 Meters or 300 Feet.
This might not be a really big deal, but when you figure some of the Long Range Guns could fire a projectile over many miles, then it would seem your artillery could hit anything on a map of 34 x 34.
I have built a Distance Calculator that covers Map Sizes of 100 x100 (4.8 Km / 3 Miles), and Weapon & Sight Ranges up to 100 (150 m / 492 Feet / 164 Yds).
Just some information for your consumption and discussion.
I hope this helps you with map building in the future.
The Major
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Post by Jagged Steel on Nov 23, 2010 4:49:48 GMT 1
This might not be a really big deal, but when you figure some of the Long Range Guns could fire a projectile over many miles, then it would seem your artillery could hit anything on a map of 34 x 34. The Major Actually, a .50 cal could easily hit anything on even the biggest BK map size (1 mile).
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Post by LouisXIV on Nov 23, 2010 11:44:36 GMT 1
Another issue of playability versus realism.
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Ocelo
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Map Artist/Eastern Front enthusiast
Posts: 1,400
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Post by Ocelo on Nov 23, 2010 18:45:32 GMT 1
Larger maps also take a toll on the PC if they have lots of units or are nicely detailed. And even if we cut the dimensions by a half, and have 1 square km=10x10 map, we still very often cover much larger battles, at least 5 square km if you're talking about Kursk or the Ardennes. But we can't quite make a 50x50, can we? I found that, while new gameplay is interesting and at times fun, perhaps the most important aspect to remember is to conserve the balance between units, unit types, and unit nationalities, all for the purpose of sustaining playability and quality of the mission. Unless, of course, you want to illustrate/emphasize the inferiority/superiority of a unit, which usually requires a counterbalance in favor/disfavor of the player. Not referring to any particular mod, just I think something that should be kept in mind.
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Ocelo
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Post by Ocelo on Nov 25, 2010 21:06:17 GMT 1
Personally, I really enjoyed the ranges in GZM 7 and the associated gameplay. Everything seemed very realistic and well-balanced, though it did take some time to get used to. The only really frustrating thing in GZM-7 IMO are underpowered AA guns (stukas are close to impossible to bring down), and perhaps overly effective GAPs (they can spot everything very fast, there's nothing left after they attack provided they survive), and the Stukas are just invincible and devastating.
Anyways, the ranges in it seem very well balanced (although the modifications relate to almost entirely sight ranges and direct fire ranges, plus SJ's mentioned 'slingshots').
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Post by fabrice on Dec 2, 2010 15:41:03 GMT 1
Hello Excuse my english, i am french, Ihave one question: Is it possible to make a maps greater than 32x32 and how to make. Thank you for reply
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Ocelo
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Map Artist/Eastern Front enthusiast
Posts: 1,400
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Post by Ocelo on Dec 2, 2010 16:04:18 GMT 1
In a word, I believe Yes. Not sure how to do this (you may have to edit the map in XML format). If someone posts more detailed description, I'll delete this post.
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Post by danzig70 on Dec 2, 2010 22:04:01 GMT 1
Might it be better to use the artillery salvo "aircraft" instead of actual artillery pieces on every map? That way you could have a break through chapter where there's no artillery pieces on the map until you over-run their artillery positions.
The player could also call an artillery barrage instead of calling heavy bomber aircraft.
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Ocelo
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Post by Ocelo on Dec 2, 2010 22:53:47 GMT 1
@danzig: that would most definitely be suitable in a number of cases, especially on smaller maps. However, IMO it is worth to keep in mind that tactical bombers were used pretty extensively on the front lines. It is just Nival's largely incorrect adherence to heavy bombers that skewed this. IMO the Pe-2 was used more often as a tactical bomber, not the supreme fighter and GAP plane it is illustrated to be. TB-3s were often sent on important tactical missions at the beginning of the war, but it was not their primary purpose, and after heavy losses I believe the VVS largely stopped that. Same thing for Allies and Germans.
Heavy bombers were in fact used in low level bombing, but this was comparatively very rare, as the cheaper tactical bombers were far better suited for this economically. Plus there were far more Ju-88s and SB/DB/Pe-2s to go around than He-111s and TB-3/Pe-8s.
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Post by LouisXIV on Dec 3, 2010 12:35:08 GMT 1
I have to wonder if the developers were influenced by the several (and disatrous) occasions when the western commanders used heavy bombers to break up the stalemate in Normandy.
I too feel that 4-motor bombers in particular should have no part in a grand-tactical game like Blitzkrieg.
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Xmen
Pukovnik
Posts: 373
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Post by Xmen on Dec 3, 2010 13:27:44 GMT 1
Maybe you can use Communications vehicle or Command vehicle like SdKfz 251/3 to replace "Artillery Gun" . Take the artillery salvo example and created some different vehicle "Jeep, Kubelwagen, Sdkz251..." with different calibre "105, 122, 150, 155mm..."
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Ocelo
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Map Artist/Eastern Front enthusiast
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Post by Ocelo on Dec 3, 2010 15:36:06 GMT 1
I have to wonder if the developers were influenced by the several (and disatrous) occasions when the western commanders used heavy bombers to break up the stalemate in Normandy.
I too feel that 4-motor bombers in particular should have no part in a grand-tactical game like Blitzkrieg. On larger maps, I believe they could have some decent tasks. But IMO most of the current tactical bombers have rather light weapons. For instance, how many 250kg bombs could a Ju88 and an SB carry? Many mods give them much lighter bombs, like 150kg or even 50kg, making them pretty useless flak fodder. Haven't heard about the Normandy uses, but the Red Army used bombers rather often in the last years of the war to help soften up enemy defensive lines, like a Katjusha. But I am positive that tactical bombers were used for this, and I am not sure about heavies. Which brings me to this: Pe-8s are waaay too overused on BK maps. Remember, less than 100 were built total, including replacements, so at various times, no more than 50 were available to the VVS. These bombers executed strategic long-rage bobbing missions, including Berlin, Konigsberg, the Eastern capitals, and a few of the German strategic locations in the USSR, such as the rail station at Belgorod. If they are used on maps, I believe they should be allotted to another party, and used as a 1-time, scenario thing. At least the Allies had more bombers, making such practice more theoretically realistic. I can't imagine a situation in which the VVS would give a dozen of its most precious planes to some battlefield commander. On the other hand, remember that Pe-8s were available from the first days of the war. The only time it is OK to use heavies for the USSR is in the earlier days of the war, namely the TB-3s. These were rather often used in bombing captured or abandoned bridges and river crossings, as well as some other crucial targets. But in BK they are very weak, unable to use the cover of darkness (their primary intention). These too were used on long-range strategic bombing night missions, all the way up to the end of the war.
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Post by danzig70 on Dec 3, 2010 16:22:51 GMT 1
You can add a multiple "players" on th esame side. You can assign the artillery to player 0, bombers to player 1, the enemy artillery is player 2, enemy bomber - player 3, and nuetral is player 4. Even on a single player map, I think this works. Havent tried it in a while.
I do enjoy leveling cities with the He-111.
But I agree that if you start off the campaign as a major, it is unlikely you would be calling in strategic bombers. Perhaps with the campaign script you can enable bombers when the rank is colonel or something. I would rather have the player call dive bombers instead and have strategic bombers show up via scripts.
Also, I tried making a 1024x1024 (64x64) map last nite. Very interesting. I just changed the map size. 1/4 of the map was populated with terrain. So perhaps by adding additional terrain items would work.
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Post by Major Pain on Dec 3, 2010 22:32:33 GMT 1
danzig: Did you try to rebuild the containers?
I don't think there is a limit to the map size. You would have to start a blank map of 32 x 32, then save it in xml. Then change the size in the xml file. Depending on how you populate the map,only part would need to be changed.
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Post by danzig70 on Dec 3, 2010 23:44:47 GMT 1
No I didnt as it was just a quick test. I never thought of trying it before. Another rainy day project!
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