bb
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Blitzkrieg junkie (tried to quit several times).
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Post by bb on Oct 29, 2017 4:16:00 GMT 1
Hi, I decided to share with you a little about my experience in making map. After all, I probably work with more than 100 maps, since making then from the scratch, working over old maps and also reworking and improving several maps made by other people. My idea here is not discuss about the visual and the tools of the map editor, etc., but just suggest some ideas to help you to make maps faster and easier. 1st Tip: Editing the maps in xml files. By editing maps in xml files you can make almost everything. This is very easy: save an old map in xml, open it with the notepad and you can do a lot of things, you can easily change the buildings, units and flora objects. So, is posible to convert a map made to be played with the Germans to be played with the soviets for example. All you need to do is to substitute the name of the units in the map using the ctrl+H command. You can change all the Pz_Kpfw_V_Panther_Ausf_G for KV_85 for for example. Just take care to keep some balancement between the units and to write its correct name (as appear in the map editor). Once you make this you can keep the original script and the map will run very well. This is a good way to convert maps for different scenarios, is possible to convert a map made to 1942 for a modern war scenario for example. You also can change a map season editing the xml files. Lets say I want to change a winter map to summer. For this, I first use the the BKP XML tools to change the season, keeping all objects in the maps. After this, I edit the files and change all the winter objects (flora, terrain objects, fences) to summer objects using the crtl+H command. two examples: Original summer map: Autumn map: Original summer map: Autumn map: Another interessant possibility is changing the players of a map. Lets say, you find a very classic and cool defensive map, with a very cool terrain which you alllways dream to make a version where the player is the attacker. Well, this is very easy, just subsitutute all Player="0" refererences in your xml file to Player="1" . Now, remove the original AI units (they probably are scripted so is better to remove it) and put new units to the player and the map will be ready to receive a new script. Finally, you can enlarge old maps editing the xml files. I wont deal abouth this here because we allready discussed this in another thread. Example of an enlarged map. I also change the player side. The original was an offensive German side map and I changed it to deffensive, soviet side. Original: Enlarged map: ONE IMPORTANT NOTE: To track bugs and to solve crashes in the editing process (if you write a name of a unit wrong the map will crash), I allways change the name of the mod in the map, for example, I change the <MODName>GPW</MODName> to <MODName>GPnW</MODName> so, once you open the map you will receive a message that the said mod is unsupported, the editor will delete the bad references in the map (wrong name units) and will creat a log file in your logs folder called loadmap_log.txt with the list of the "bad units". So you can look for it in the xml file and fix the problem. The log will be something like this: Roads deleted: Rivers deleted: Objects deleted: Object: Granate_Laub, pos: [15.81, 122.64], player: 0, scriptID: -1 Object: A_Fower02, pos: [104.98, 143.50], player: 0, scriptID: -1 Object: SPW_251_10, pos: [110.67, 100.00], player: 0, scriptID: -1 Object: A_Fower02, pos: [70.50, 2.00], player: 0, scriptID: -1 I'll post more tips soon.
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Mat
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Post by Mat on Nov 4, 2017 17:11:10 GMT 1
thx bb i can just confirm that notepad++ open source xml editor is the best weapon to work with BK XML files!
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bb
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Blitzkrieg junkie (tried to quit several times).
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Post by bb on Nov 5, 2017 17:12:24 GMT 1
Another important tip on editing the xml maps: I think every mapper use the field generator tool in the map editor, but after some time those original fields are just too much "cliche" and we want something different. One option is to make new random fields by editing the files in your data folder, but this use to be a painful process because you wont have a visual idea of the new random map before editing it, so is a long trial and error process. So, this is what I use to do now. First, I make one field using the map tool. I prefer to use fields from diferent seasons (winter on summer maps for example) because is easier to edit the map. Just dont forget to unhceck the fill terrain option. Here is the outcome: Now, I open the map with the notepad and substitute all W_BushVeryBig and W_Birch for A_Sand_02 and S_Bush01. Here you have:
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bb
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Blitzkrieg junkie (tried to quit several times).
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Post by bb on Nov 8, 2018 3:38:17 GMT 1
Hello, I'll add some more thoughts here to help new mappers and to discuss it with my 4 or 5 surviving mappers fellows. So, here I go: 1st: Small maps are ok. Many people likes to make big and highly detailed maps. No problem, we love big maps, but remember that big maps are harder to test, harder to script, harder to add units. Small maps, if well detailed and well builded, can be very attractive, remember that sometimes, the players just want a fast action and not keep years playing the same map. And our legend, Mr.Frost, made several cool and fun small maps to Hagelsturm mod (but this rule not applies to MK).
2nd: Small scripts are ok. Same rule. Sometimes you spend days working in a complex script with hundreds of lines but the outcome will be frustrating to the player. (My experience with my map StalinLine to GPW-GZM campaign). Another legend, Dmitry M., used to made maps with very small scripts (70 lines), and his maps are still reproduced and converted in recently released compilation campaigns.
3rd: Position of the units and balancement is essential. You can have a small map, a short script, but you should not to forget to do a good placement of the AI units. Hide the AT units with trees, buildings and so on, put the counter-attacks in surprising places (but not in the middle of the player units...). Also be aware to dont give too many units for the player, but dont give too litlle so the player will need to stop all his actions just to refil his 3 surviving squads...
4th: Aviation is important but you must to balance it too. If you give bombers to the AI since the begining of the mission, the player will shot then down very soon, if you give to much reconaissance aircraft to the player, all your work in hidding the AT guns will be lost, etc.
5th: Testing is painful but is very important. We dont have much testers around, but you can test by yourself. Play your maps without using cheats, but remember, you know the tricks, so the map will be easier for you than to a 3rd person.
6th: Don't wait for comments and support. There is a small number of surviving players and most of then are very specialized, which means they just play their favorite side, their favorite mod, their favorite scenario. But with time, someone will play your map and comment it. And I can guarantee, I probably will try your map someday, and maybe I'll comment.
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Post by Quintaxel on Nov 8, 2018 12:35:06 GMT 1
2nd: Small scripts are ok. Same rule. Sometimes you spend days working in a complex script with hundreds of lines but the outcome will be frustrating to the player. (My experience with my map StalinLine to GPW-GZM campaign). Another legend, Dmitry M., used to made maps with very small scripts (70 lines), and his maps are still reproduced and converted in recently released compilation campaigns. I agree here but I would like to share some thoughts on this. I think a distinction should be made between scenario and script. The scenario is what the designer expects from the AI on the actions of the player. This requires different skills than needed for scripting. Map makers can put together a scenario without knowing Lua. In fact, not knowing Lua and it's limitations within the BK environment or not taking this into account when putting together the scenario, could be an advantage. Knowing Lua might even block the creative process as some ideas may be be considered not to be feasible. The script is 'just a translation' of that scenario in a language that is understood by the game engine. This is much easier when a 'scripter' clearly understands what is expected from the scenario. The challenge for the scripter is to put the scenario into a script. Sometimes this is a challenge but in most cases the skills needed do script are overrated. My point, if any: The number of script lines is not a measure for the quality of the map but the scenario is.
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bb
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Blitzkrieg junkie (tried to quit several times).
Posts: 1,356
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Post by bb on Nov 8, 2018 18:15:31 GMT 1
Yes, to build a good scenarios you dont need more than BKP script generator. But my advice to beginners is to try to explore script functions slow and dont use too much inventions in the same map (also because you cant control exactly what the player will do).
And a good way to test a script function is trying it in a test map before adding it to your map, because testing several times an action which should happen on the end of the mission is really painfull.
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Post by olaf66 on Nov 8, 2018 18:29:52 GMT 1
6th: Don't wait for comments and support. There is a small number of surviving players and most of then are very specialized, which means they just play their favorite side, their favorite mod, their favorite scenario. But with time, someone will play your map and comment it. And I can guarantee, I probably will try your map someday, and maybe I'll comment.
Yes ! i'm agree give us map everyday !
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Post by Quintaxel on Nov 14, 2018 14:46:52 GMT 1
I'm currently playing the second mission of "Operation North". As a average player I find this map challenging enough in the sense that the balancing is ok and the layout and placement of units is quite okay. But like many maps, there are few surprises and the initiative is left to the player. The player makes a move and the AI reacts to these moves. As the game progresses the player occupies more terrain and more terrain on the map until the final objective is met. The player does not have to worry about defending the parts of the map that were taken or securing supply lines or depots. I think this is were scripting can make the difference. The script should check how the game evolves and react to the situation. For Example a script could check a weakness in the players defense line and force a breakthrough or attack undefended position.This would force the player to think about securing his position and would make the map more interesting. Can this be scripted ? I'm pretty convinced, yes. Would this make the script more complex ? The script would be longer for sure but not necessarily more complex. The real challenge is not the scripting itself but assessing the different scenario's and how to react to them. This requires experienced players. One approach could be to start with playing an existing map and write out possible scenarios on how the AI could response to them. Just a thought
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Post by Stanenberg on Nov 14, 2018 21:03:01 GMT 1
There are many maps where this type of scripting is involved. There are either surprising enemy attacks from the flanks or leaving territory unprotected triggers counterattacks. I have played Operation North myself and i have to say that it has some of the most static Maps i ever played. Much like in Vanilla BK, the AI barely moves from its positions. A huge problem in making scripts like this is the many possibilities there are. It requires excessive amounts of work and testing to figure out how the map will play out, and keep it mind that every player has a different playstyle. Another point that shouldnt forgotten is, that many of these "what if" scripts remain unused, if the player does in fact secure his flanks. For me as a scripter, this sounds like a lot of excess work for just a very few people who might trigger there flanking/whatever scripts. Some scripts may never be triggered because no player went for the approach that i had in mind creating said script. In my recent GZM map i tried to create a script like you envisioned, however it resulted in spawning AI units behind the players frontlines, which bb for example found confusing.
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bb
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Blitzkrieg junkie (tried to quit several times).
Posts: 1,356
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Post by bb on Nov 15, 2018 1:27:09 GMT 1
I agree with both of you. Script is what makes the maps interesting, although is very tiresome to test it. Also, as Stan said, you dont know how the player will act and the outcome can be frustrating.
But here is what I do:
1) Random scripts. In several of my maps I added random counter-attacks with different units attacking from different points the player units, the attacks are repeated in different time-lapses (5, 10, 30, 45) or even more.
2) Running enemy; in other maps, when the player enter a zone or starts to attack a trench I command all AI infantry to run away for a safer place. Sometimes I use this units to counter-attack or I remove then from the map.
3)Hit and run. I may put a group of enemy tanks in the middle of a bush. Once the player gets a position he will be attacked by this group, but, if this tank group reach a number less than 5, for example, they will be called back...
but I'm not sure about the players experience with those maps (in general, we just receive a comment when the scripts doesn't runs well...).
Anyway, to test different scripts, sometimes I make some "laboratory tests" with little maps. This is important specially when the map is big and is necessary a lot of gamplay time before this particular script be called. Even using the cheats, it can be very frustrating spend like 2 hour restarting a mission and replaying it just to get at that last f****g counter-attack which never happen...
Finally, I try to keep a copy of all of my old scripts in the same folder and I try to keep the same structure of script number and AI zones, (in general the player units script number are between 100-110 and the AI units between 200-210; the AI zones also repeats the same idea "obj0", "obj1"... "zone0", "zone1". Sometimes is just a question of copying and pasting.
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Post by Stanenberg on Nov 22, 2018 2:48:19 GMT 1
At the moment i am playing the classic "Korsun Pocket" by mr.frost. Several maps include surprising enemy attacks in rear and flanks with different tricks. On the most recent map, which was very small so i thought i couldnt get flanked, the AI russians started a massive paratrooper attack which was reinforced by scripted units. These kinds of tricks can really catch the player off guard and make for confusing and challenging scenarios! (more detailed review will follow in my reviews thread)
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Post by Quintaxel on Nov 22, 2018 9:51:14 GMT 1
Reviews by seasoned players is an essential input for improving maps.The so called 'tricks' are in most cases not even difficult to script. Looking forward to your review, hopefully with some pictures. Off Topic: For hosting images I can recommend imgbb.com/It's free, easy to use and works well for posting images on a website.
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bb
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Blitzkrieg junkie (tried to quit several times).
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Post by bb on Nov 23, 2018 4:28:22 GMT 1
I never passed the first mission.
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