bb
General
Blitzkrieg junkie (tried to quit several times).
Posts: 1,356
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Post by bb on Dec 11, 2018 15:21:43 GMT 1
Guys,
I'm reworking some maps using MP units and stuff from our big collective collection of units and skins. I started to do this for my personal use but I'm wondering if some of you are interested and want to try it. The gameplay style is the good and old Vanilla,.
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Post by Quintaxel on Dec 11, 2018 15:32:27 GMT 1
I like good old vanilla, so I'm interested.
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Post by Stanenberg on Dec 11, 2018 18:20:15 GMT 1
While there are good vanilla gameplay maps out there, i see no reason why one wouldnt use more interesting and complex gameplays like Kursk or GZM.
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Post by [BMG]Neutro on Dec 11, 2018 19:58:17 GMT 1
sounds good iam in
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Post by feldgrau on Dec 12, 2018 6:54:47 GMT 1
... the good and old Vanilla,.
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Post by Quintaxel on Dec 12, 2018 10:20:13 GMT 1
bb, I love the idea of reworking/upgrading existing BK maps. In a sense its a tribute to the people who made the maps the initial maps. One of the things I would consider is to make these maps for the HG mod. This mod is BK Vanilla based and already contains tons of community objects and skins, also the ones made by the late Major Pain. It's just an idea.
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atlas555
General
I know not what course others may take. As for me, give me liberty or give me death.
Posts: 1,069
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Post by atlas555 on Dec 12, 2018 13:47:27 GMT 1
Sounds good!!
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Post by Stanenberg on Dec 12, 2018 15:10:19 GMT 1
I think we must stop reworking old work. The community has become stale, partly because nothing new gets produced. Instead of mapping quick and simple reworks, put in the extra work and create new and unique maps and mods, using the enhanced gameplay mods we already have available! And even if it means that you release only 1 map and not a campaign with 30. Sometimes less is more...
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Post by Quintaxel on Dec 12, 2018 15:51:59 GMT 1
I think we must stop reworking old work. The community has become stale, partly because nothing new gets produced. Instead of mapping quick and simple reworks, put in the extra work and create new and unique maps and mods, using the enhanced gameplay mods we already have available! And even if it means that you release only 1 map and not a campaign with 30. Sometimes less is more... Revamping a map so adding new material, rewriting the scenario an improving the script is, IMO, an enhancement of the gameplay or should be. I do agree that quality is more important than quantity but using one or more mod is not a guarantee for an interesting game . I'm currently playing "Operation North". (Don' t laugh ) The maps are pure Vanilla and could benefit from adding new objects, units and most important the improvement of the AI. I understand and respect your view on reworking maps but in my case this is the only thing I see feasible due to lack of certain skills and time. Maybe we could try a little experiment. We select a small to medium map and let some seasoned players review it, point out the strengths and weaknesses of the map. Next we could rework and improve the map to see if its possible to make the map more challenging/interesting.
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Post by Stanenberg on Dec 12, 2018 19:36:52 GMT 1
That "experiment" sounds like the usual testing phase of any map ever produced. The problem with reworking Operation North maps is, that they were never good to begin with (i am sure that anyone who has a bit of playing experience will agree that these maps are bad?). If you try to improve them, you might create decent out of bad maps. But i want good maps, not decent maps. I dont get why you would put effort in these bad maps, if you can create far better maps from scratch or even *shudder* random maps. I am not sure what you mean by using "one or more mod". I am sure you know that it is impossible to use more than one mod at once? Maybe it is a difference in perspective. I have played maybe a thousand SP maps and Operation North seems boring to me, like a lot of maps do nowadays. I wouldnt dare to try a rework of a map i found really bad. For some of the newer players it might have more value I guess as long as we dont have a consens in the community on what is actually a "good" map, there is no point in trying to improve.
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Post by Quintaxel on Dec 12, 2018 21:23:45 GMT 1
You are right there, it sounds like testing. However, if maps where tested before release as I see it then why do they still disappoint ? Why do they have these shortcomings that everybody seems to agree upon. I mean the maps of 'Operation North' are static but that could be changed. I think a lot depends on the feedback of the reviewer
About the mod. Indeed you can only use one 'mod' at a time but I consider extra pak files that are added to the data directory also as mods. Sorry for the confusion here.
It's because you played thousand of maps that your input is valuable. However your definition of a good map will differ from mine because we play at another level. I probably could not finish the maps you find easy. So my definition of a good map is fun to play. And I agree that Operation North are boring as they are but I'm also convinced that they could be improved.
A good map should be challenging when played without loading a saved game every time the player loses a couple of units. In a good map the AI will try to occupy the terrain. But that's my opinion of course?
I think we do not need consensus on what what a good map is. It's more important to get feedback from players why they think a certain map is good.
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bb
General
Blitzkrieg junkie (tried to quit several times).
Posts: 1,356
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Post by bb on Dec 13, 2018 0:34:29 GMT 1
Hm... our mighty friend from Kurskstan started another controversy... Speaking seriouly, I think I have a different vision about what is a fun map, Stanenberg. I have been playing and enjoying Fritzlang maps to Mk and, although I'm really enjoing it, sometimes I get tired to spend one week just to win one single map. So, I just go back to my old vanilla installation and blow some tanks in maps which won't cost me more than 1 or 2 hours. Somtimes I think MK is almost a different game... it looks with BK1 but is more something close to BK 1.8... Second point, to re-work old maps. I agree in part with you. I cant stand, for example, one more version of Dmitry M. or the vanilla campaign maps. I played it several times and there is no chance I'll have any fun playing it again. But what I intend to do is re-working some maps that I didnt play, because the original mapper made hundred of maps for my favourite scenario (the first two years of the war) but his maps are so easy I coulnt have any fun playing it. My idea is to change the units editing the xml files, rebalance the air power and add random scripts which could improve the experience of playing it. I'm doing it for my personal amusement and also as a new experience, I'll share by PM just for the people interested in it. Third point, the community. Definetivelly, we are not lacking developers and good mappers. I can remember at least 3 good mappers who appeared after the end of the BKP and which are not active anymore: Tedi88, Ecimir and Fritlang. All of then worked from the scratch and they made some really classic maps, the Viena map made by Tedi88 is probably one of the best city maps I ever played, Stalingrad chapter by Ecimir is so good as the Stalingrad maps in the Stalingrad addon, Fritzlang maps has the same immersion than some original MK maps. And why they stopped to make maps? Well, I'm not sure, but I believe is because the support here was almost inexistent. This is not a problem of anybody, but just a question that the community is very small on these days and so there is very few people really playing BK (just check my thread "Good maps to play"...). And if you are lucking for new maps, try ranjid mod, it's a very interesting and promising work. And write to us a review, I'm sure everybody here will appreciate it.
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Post by Stanenberg on Dec 13, 2018 2:56:03 GMT 1
While i usually indeed need 1 or 2 hours for a large sized kursk map, i understand what you are trying to say. And i wont argue against you because you are right. Small maps are no worse than big maps, its a question of preferance.
Of course i welcome any kind of release. You dont have to hide in shame from your reworked maps and spread them via PM like some backstreet dealer hiding from the mighty kurskistan quality police.
We do indeed lack players, but i defenitely have other conceptions of who is/was a good mapper but I feel bad if i criticize certain people here so i will refrain from it.
I think the best way of getting new players in, is trying to develop new things, or at least support the mods that seem most popular (Kursk and GZM. Literally everyone who is new to the forums or comes in contact with me on steam/discord asks me for links to either Kursk or GZM).
I was assisting Ranjid with the mod and i am not a big fan of the winter war scenario, but it is defenitely very good work. I will write a comment on it once i try it.
On paper it seems that we actually have similar ideas of what makes a good map, but then you manage to dislike maps i find absolutely perfect and to like maps which is found abosutely terrible. Astonishing indeed...
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bb
General
Blitzkrieg junkie (tried to quit several times).
Posts: 1,356
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Post by bb on Dec 16, 2018 4:59:21 GMT 1
Stanenberg , no, I wont hide this campaign for shame, is just because is more an experiment, I'll sendo you a copy when ready. As I always say, I wellcome all kind of criticism. I would prefer some harsh words than nothing as happen with my lats work. And I think is easy to understand why we disagree about so many maps: you clearly prefer ro work with a limited number of units and proceed with care in your missions, when I like to have good number of units to manouver, outflank the enemy and also to make dumb movements... it's a question of taste. Squire James : I tried your mod, it has some of the best units and skins around, but I don't like random maps, so I didn't played it so much to get used with it and (maybe) starting to making maps for it. About the mods, In general I agree that MK and GZM are the most popular and probably is a good idea to support then. But I also love vanilla gameplay, I'm working with this "secret" campaign but I'll resume my chapter to the heeresgoupe mod very soon.
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Post by feldgrau on Dec 16, 2018 8:35:20 GMT 1
... I'm working with this "secret" campaign but I'll resume my chapter to the heeresgoupe mod very soon. Hi bb
Do you want to have the new "Heeresgruppe_additions002"? With new and revised bridges, buildings, fences, trees, simple- and terraobjects, squads, roads and units, bug fixes, additions or improvements, I then continue with "Heeresgruppe_additions003". The BK_Heeresgruppe-Editing-Folder / BK-Editing-Folder is already something inside again. Willst Du dafür die neue "Heeresgruppe_additions002" haben? Mit neuen und überarbeiteten Brücken, Gebäude, Zäune, Bäume, Simple-und TerraObjects, Squads, Straßen und Units, Fehlerbeseitigungen, Ergänzungen bzw. Verbesserungen, Ich mache dann mit "Heeresgruppe_additions003" weiter. Im BK_Heeresgruppe-Bearbeiten-Ordner / BK-Bearbeiten-Ordner ist auch schon wieder was drinne.
mbkg Feldgrau
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