Understanding sight/sightpower/camouflage

[Herr Kodax]

Major, I have to correct you on the CoverBonus if you may.

It does not have to do with the squad's canouflage, but how exposed they are to enemy fire. Alow me to elaborate:

Standing soldiers normally receive 100% (1) of a weapon's accuracy (defined by dispersion/dispersion bonus), while lying soldiers get whatever is defined in the const.xml (LyingSoldierCover).

I'll use your squad to explain.

Say, a bad guy starts taking potshots at your squad using a rifle with 60% accuracy (as said, defined by weapon's dispersion and any dispersion bonues/penalties - I have a theory how it is calculated, but that is for later). Your guys are in default formation, which means: 

-As long as they are kneeling, they are CoverBonus of 1.5, which means they will receive 1 ('default cover')  x1.5 x WeaponAccuracy (0.6) = 0.9 (90% chance to get shot)

-The moment they hit the dirt (lie down), their 'default cover' is LyingSoldierCover. Say it's set at 0.4. Now you have: 0.4 x 1.5 x 0.6 = 0.36 (36% chance to get shot).

BUT - 

When in defnsive posture (same scenario), the cover bonus is set to 1.7, which gives us 0.4 (soldiers are lying) x 1.7 x 0.6 = 0.408, or 40.8% chance of being shot.



That aside, I am working with entities MP (Officers and Snipers), which are on their own a squad. But the concept of the squad taking the 'abilities' (camo) of the squad leader, is intriguing and to be tested as soon as. But, to be honest, I'm a little pessimistic on that, as I remember the USSR sniper squad in Stalingrad. Comprised of 2 snipers and a PPSh guy. When in sneak formation, the PPSh guy was always spotted at max range - and promptly shot at.

Still can't understand the various types of squads though (apologies for being so stubborn, but that's just me). Leaving a side a sniper squad (06000000). What bonuses (or penalties) could a rifle squad (00000000) have over an SMG one (02000000)?

[Major Pain]

Kodax

Keep working on your theories...   I am excited that someone perhaps may define some new rules on this.  Most of my knowledge is based on much the same kind of testing, but you may be taking this several steps beyond my own work.

Yes the values in the const.xml must be considered...   But you are looking at these functions incorrectly.

If you use the LyingSoldierCover="0.5" to arrive at the Camouflage value,  The Sniper is more exposed that some standing soldiers have, since it reduces the sniper's camo by half, around 56.    This is incorrect.

The LyingSoldierCover="0.5" (FUNCTION) is not used to calculate a Camouflage value, but is the percentage chance of a an enemy hitting a Sniper that is laying down.   So in this case, a detected Sniper has a 50% chance of being hit.  Actually, this applies to all soldiers that are laying down.

Ok...  now let's look at the SniperCamouflageDecreasePerShoot="0.002".    This is not the amount that Camouflage is Decreased when the Sniper Fires his weapon.   On each shot, this is the Probability that Camouflage is totally lost. (1.0 - maximal camouflage)

Let's examine the SniperCamouflageDecreasePerShoot="0.002" (FUNCTION).   The Chance that the Sniper Camouflage will be lost is low, but possible.  It has nothing to do with how many times he fires, or moves.   The Function is applied every time his fires his weapon.

Here's the Formula:   (Camouflage = 75) --->   75 x 0.002 = .15 (or 15% chance that the Sniper will be stripped of his Camouflage).  
Assume for this example that the Camouflage is stripped:   (1 - 75) = -74 then:   75 - 74 = 1 for the new Camouflage Value.

Now apply the CoverBonus (1.5):   1.5 x 1 = 1.5....  he is stripped bare and can be seen by anything in sight/weapon range of any enemy soldier.

There is another Function is located in the const.xml:  SniperCamouflageIncrease="0.001075".    The probability of revealing the sniper decreases by this value per 1 segment.   (Segment defined as a shot).   This works against the SniperCamouflageDecreasePerShoot.   This offsets the probability that a shot removes the Camouflage.   

0.002 - 0.001075 = 0.00925.   Then 75 x 0.00925 = .069 (or a 6.9% chance that the Sniper will be stripped of his Camouflage).


Understanding exactly what the const.xml is doing is difficult.  Some of the statements are FUNCTION values or multipliers, while others are RANGE values.   Some statements use the values or factors within a Formula based on some value on a unit.   

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OK... you keep asking about the differences between types of Squads/Teams.

Some of the primary factors defining squads is only a matter of very small differences.   Image the type of Squad and the weight of their types of weapons.   A heavier gun would tend to slow the squad down somewhat.   The lightest weapons would allow members to carry their weapons with ease.

00000000 = Rifle Squad        <-----------  If all Rifles, makes a good pace.
01000000 = Infantry Squad   <-----------  Assumes mixed weapons, Squad moves at the pace of the slowest soldier.
02000000 = SubMachine Gunner Team  <---  If all SMGs, then a bit quicker than Rifle Squad.
03000000 = Machine Gunner Squad  <------ Assumes Heavy Machine Guns or Light Machine Guns, a little slower
04000000 = AT Team      <---------   Heavy Weapon Team  -  A little quicker than HMG.
05000000 = Mortar Team  <--------  Same as the HMG Gunner   Heavy Weapon!
06000000 = Sniper Team/Squad  <------  Light and Quicker than any other Squad.
07000000 = Gunner Team  <------- The HMG Gunners.  Heavy Weapon!
08000000 = Engineer Team  <------ Light Weapons!  But no Officer for cohesion!

The weapons do not have a weights associated with them, (except Artillery Weapons).   So there is a little difference in Speed, Detection and Reaction Times on the Soldiers assigned to a Squad.  When I state faster or slower above, this includes all of the factors.  It would be hard to see the differences because it is in milliseconds and is a hard-coded factor.  You'd need to move them across a fair distance to see it.  But you can test this.  The Squad Multipliers also affect all of these, so all things should be equal for testing.

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Squad Construction:

Refer to my previous post for some of the things I talked about.

But I have said for years that BK Squads do not replicate anything remotely historical.  The members might be correct in name, but how they are defined and assigned to Formations is just flat out wrong.

A Squad that has been defined for battle, always has a Point Man.   He is the guy that is a little ahead of everyone else when they are moving.    He is looking for the enemy and other hazards that can have an impact on the Squad.    


When the Squad is Idle, during a rest or manning an assigned location, why are BK Squads assuming neatly formed lines in Formation and Standing up?   Squads don't do this because their battle effectiveness is severely reduced.   It's hard to fight if you have to duck for cover upon the first round taking out one of your guys.

Formation <Type>00000000</Type>
 = Default   (Offensive and Defensive)
As mentioned, my new squad members have all been given new sprites and animations.   One of the new Postures they now have is the kneeling stance.    Some are on one knee, others might be on both knees or their butt.   When they are assigned to a Squad, this is their Default Stance.  In the Squad 1.xml, I can adjust the Squad's Multipliers to fit the need.   Sight is at maximum.   Speed is not affected... because they are not moving.    But since each soldier is already in a Defensive Posture, he can Quickly change to offensive within the same Default Formation.  Each of the members can shoot from that stance.  Dispersion is improved, Relax Time is reduced and Rate of Fire is Improved.

Formation <Type>02000000</Type>
= Laying  (Defensive)
If  things get too hot or they are overpowered, they will move to the laying posture in the same Formation... they do not have to crawl to a new spot.   They can continue to Fire from there or go back to the kneeling posture individually.     While laying, Sight is the same as kneeling, Dispersion is improved slightly, Relax Time is not changed and Rate of Fire is slightly reduced.  Speed is not affected... unless they are crawling which is increased slightly.

Formation <Type>03000000</Type>
= Charging / Walking (Aggressive)
If they get enough of the enemy, members may actually stand up if they are in a strong spot, and continue to fire aggressively.   The Player can Set his squad to Aggressive and they will all stand and charge the enemy.   While Charging, speed is not changed unless the Squad is set to Aggressive.  Dispersion is decreased, Relax Time is reduced and Rate of Fire is Improved.  

** Setting the Squad to Aggressive is a 1.25 multiplier.

Formation <Type>04000000</Type>
= Sneaking (Aggressive)
Every members is crawling and moving carefully.   The purpose here is to 'sneak' up on a position.    If they encounter the enemy, they can maintain the laying posture, change to fire from kneeling, or Stand and Fire.   They will maintain the aggressive stance unless they are overpowered.   Then they will try to hunker down or even retreat.  Speed is the same.   Sight is increased slightly.  Dispersion is improved slightly, Relax Time is not changed and Rate of Fire is slightly reduced.

Formation <Type>01000000</Type>
= Moving/Marching (Defensive)
This Formation lines the members up for a march and similar to BK Standard.   The primary difference here is spacing between the members, with a Scout at the Point.  All of the Squads Multipliers are set to 1 and nothing changes.

As mentioned, this is a Squad Designed for Fighting.   A Squad or Single Soldier that is a Sentry or Guards a Position walking around, would be perhaps the same soldiers, but use different animation sequences.   Each of my Soldiers are designed for Different uses.  

The USA_1M1Garand Soldier is designed for a Squad.  

The USA_2M1Garand Soldier is designed as a Sentry or Guard.  He only will kneel or lay down if his is attacked.   He can still charge and sneak, but his multipliers are different.  His default Stance is Standing in a Relaxed Posture.   Since this considered an IDLE Pose, he does animate.  He might place his weapon on his shoulder, or place it him beside him depending on how he was designed.   You can use this guy alone or in a team.

Engineers and Gunners in contrast are given the Kneeling Formation.    This affords them some extra protection from snipers or attack.  Since these Teams are controlled by the AI, they cannot use sneak or charge unless their truck is destroyed... then they are turned loose as a team or solo.  Then they take on the Characteristics of a default 1 or 2 Member Team;  Which are also new.

The same applies to Gun and HMG teams.

My goal is to structure Squads in a way that increases their Capabilities, mostly in survivability and firepower.


To demonstrate the Sneak Formation on a BK Squad, refer to the german_para_sneak Squad.  The german_para_1943 Soldier is located in Other/Australian Folder and the German officer is in the German Folder.   None are given the Sniper designation, but the Squad does indeed sneak.  The Squad benefits from the Officer.  Try it.

I do not know why the PPSh guy was fired on in the USSR Sniper Squad.   I suspect it was due to how he was built, and his camouflage was set at a minimum.  Camouflage should be at least 40 to 45 for infantry.  One, there are a smaller target.  Two, they are harder to spot.   This gives them a 60 CamoValue if the Squad Cover Multiplier is 1.5.   And since he was part of a sniper team, why would he not have at least the same attributes as the Sniper?   Does not make sense to me...


I hope this helps...


MP

[Herr Kodax]

Now that is some great ,crystal-clear data there Major. Many thanks asnd sorry for doubting you

Now to find some spare time and get to it...

[Major Pain]

I hope everyone does have some doubt about what I might say about everything in this game.  Until they try to test it, they can only take my word for it.   I have been incorrect before about Functions and Formulas... and perhaps there are things that I have overlooked.

Having said that, my research over the years, along with the efforts of a few other people, provided the answers to many of these issues.


Read the manual cover to cover, and then look at the tutorials.   There are many things we had to figure out for ourselves.   But hints are within the Manual and Tutorials.

Example:   Did anyone realize that units that have been given the Ambush Command are given certain Bonuses?   They are given an Attack Bonus:  10% Improved Weapon Accuracy (Dispersion) as well as a 25% Increase in their Defensive Ability.

Another Example:   Units given the Stand Ground Command are given a 50% Increase in their Defensive Ability and a 15% Increase in their Armor values.

One More Example:   Units given the Entrenched Command are given a 100% Increase in their Defensive Ability, Armor values are increased 50% AND 20% Improved Weapon Accuracy.

What exactly is an Increase in Defensive Ability?   The enemy weapon firing upon it is given an Increase in it's Dispersion (accuracy): Ambush = 25% / Stand Ground 50% / Entrenched 100%.

The same kind of values can be changed in a Lua Script.

Please continue your research...

[Herr Kodax]

Small question (out of curiosity).

Are all these bonuses you mention in the consts.xml or somewhere else where mere mortals like me can change/tinker with, or buried somewhere deep withing the game code?

[Major Pain]

They are hard coded...

[Major Pain]

...And....  we are all Mortals...

[Herr Kodax]

Dagnamit.

[Major Pain]

lol...   Just keep the Kryptonite in a lead box and I'll be fine.   

[Major Pain]

Point of Reference:

I need to report this to open the door for important research results obtained by Herr Kodax

My research on the sneak function for squads is in error.   After receiving data reports from Kodax, his results seem to be conclusive and to counter my own research.  I endorse his research and stand corrected.

I invite Kodax to post the same data and results that he sent me earlier.   He was concerned about posting it and causing me embarrassment.   I assured him we are all on the same team and his research will benefit all of us.   Even if my reports were wrong...  it is better to correct the error and not let my opinion stand in the way of moving forward.

While I have worked hard to break through some of the secrets and mystery about the codes, sometimes my research does not produce the desired results... or solved the question.  My research on the sneak command did not agree with what Kodax has discovered.   I must defer to the results that Kodax has gathered.  

I invite anyone that wishes to spend countless hours digging into the unknown, join us in and help lead all of us out out the darkness.   Kodax has certainly worked many hours to unlock doors.   And he is really just getting started...  I look forward to what he comes up next.

I appreciate his attention and detail on this research.  And all of you really should give him a standing ovation.


Herr Kodax you have the floor sir.

[Herr Kodax]

Wow, thanks Major. All the more reason to continue the struggle.

Now, here's what I did:

I did try the test Major Pain mentioned (german_para_sneak squad), and found out that said squad did not actually sneak.




This is how the test was run. Using my formulas, my guys (german_para_1943, officer and sniper) can spot the (camouflaged) enemy at 40.2 range, while the enemy (USSR officer) can spot my guys at 30 range. Below is what happens when using the sneak formation.



As you can see, as long as the squad stays behind the 60 range mark, they are able to use the ambush ability (that means noone can see them).



As soon as the squad passes the 60 range mark, they can no longer use ambush. That means they are seen (no more sneaking - actually, they never were sneaking, they were just not seen by anyone).

Same test, with the sniper this time.



Just above the 40 range mark. Can't see anyone, but also cannot be seen (can use ambush).



...and just below the 40 range mark. Spotted the enemy officer (also show me that - fortunately - my formulas are correct about that), but still undetected (can ambush).


Finally, I changed the officer's and german_para_1943 soldier's designation (type) to 'sniper, and the results were these:




Sneaky sneaky. Spotted the USSR officer at 40 range, and are undetected as long as they do not get closer that 30 range (in pic, just above 30 range mark).


So, as far as I can tell, any unit (not squad) not assigned the 'sniper' type does not benefit from the sneak formation, even if the squad it is part of uses it. Also, I believe even if one soldier in a squad is not 'sniper' and spotted, the whole squad is, but further testing is required.


Finally, I want to add that this is a team effort. Some do code/gameplay changes, some create models, others give said models badass textures, others do maps etc etc. Combine all these efforts, and you get badass results.

Personally, I have no idea on texturing. Horrible at map making too. Also at model creating, so I just stick to trying to understand how various stuff (xmls) work, and to the sound department.

[Deleted]

@herr Kodax. Good job.

Greetings my friend.

[tedi88]

Jan 4, 2015 22:05:57 GMT 1 Major Pain said:

I hope everyone does have some doubt about what I might say about everything in this game.  Until they try to test it, they can only take my word for it.   I have been incorrect before about Functions and Formulas... and perhaps there are things that I have overlooked.

Having said that, my research over the years, along with the efforts of a few other people, provided the answers to many of these issues.


Read the manual cover to cover, and then look at the tutorials.   There are many things we had to figure out for ourselves.   But hints are within the Manual and Tutorials.

Example:   Did anyone realize that units that have been given the Ambush Command are given certain Bonuses?   They are given an Attack Bonus:  10% Improved Weapon Accuracy (Dispersion) as well as a 25% Increase in their Defensive Ability.

Another Example:   Units given the Stand Ground Command are given a 50% Increase in their Defensive Ability and a 15% Increase in their Armor values.

One More Example:   Units given the Entrenched Command are given a 100% Increase in their Defensive Ability, Armor values are increased 50% AND 20% Improved Weapon Accuracy.

What exactly is an Increase in Defensive Ability?   The enemy weapon firing upon it is given an Increase in it's Dispersion (accuracy): Ambush = 25% / Stand Ground 50% / Entrenched 100%.

The same kind of values can be changed in a Lua Script.

Please continue your research...

I always found it strange that units with stand ground command are more resilient and deadly than those who don't have any command. 

Well deadly part is understandable fully, resilient should be toned down IMHO. 

Still thanks for the info Major, it should prove useful.

[Major Pain]

The game engine immediately changes AI Units to Stand Ground when it engages a target.   You will notice a slight pause in their attack as they initiate Stand Ground.    

Now AI Units that are pursuing a target react a little differently.   They add the Aggressive Command which does provide a bonus to their attack... Dispersion on the weapon, about a 25% reduction which means better accuracy.   Armor and defense are not changed.  They also gain a +1 Sight for the virtual edge of their line of sight ability to track the fleeing target.   Human Players do not get this but can change their posture using the Aggressive Command.  Infantry is not very smart about this... and usually ends up as cannon fodder.   This is what I'm trying to change.

The reason for the AI bonuses or slight increases in abilities should be obvious...  the player is smarter than the AI, although, the AI is quite resilient if the script is written correctly.   There have been some maps over the years where the AI has a definite advantage.... very good scripting.

I hope Keepitsimple continues to provide LUA Script Education.   I applaud all of the work he has provided thus far and look forward to what he advances in the future.   I hope to get his attention for LUA 5 since I plan to upgrade the Scripting language in GEN II.... adds 45 commands and functions that I have worked out so far....   Plus the advantage of bringing common C++ Code Modules.   We are actually testing that right now in the current GEN II Engine...  

I want to make this very clear.   We are one team... all on the same side.   All of the guys that take the time to research and test are only doing it for the purpose of advancing the results to the members.  Kodax actually started out for his own interest, but this has become a passion for him.  He may not put it that way or even understand that is what it has become.  But anytime someone grabs onto a Tiger's tail, it was not for a selfish reason...it was to prove something...   So as long as Kodax has hold of that tail, he is going to open doors and knock down walls..... Go get 'em Kodax...

I am impressed that we have all of this talent that is advancing BK into the future.  I encourage all of you to pick something and grab that tiger's tail.


MP

[Stanenberg]

Example: Did anyone realize that units that have been given the Ambush Command are given certain Bonuses? They are given an Attack Bonus: 10% Improved Weapon Accuracy (Dispersion) as well as a 25% Increase in their Defensive Ability.

Another Example: Units given the Stand Ground Command are given a 50% Increase in their Defensive Ability and a 15% Increase in their Armor values.

One More Example: Units given the Entrenched Command are given a 100% Increase in their Defensive Ability, Armor values are increased 50% AND 20% Improved Weapon Accuracy.

What exactly is an Increase in Defensive Ability? The enemy weapon firing upon it is given an Increase in it's Dispersion (accuracy): Ambush = 25% / Stand Ground 50% / Entrenched 100%.

This sounds very interesting. Is there a whole list of all these values?

How does the ambush thing exactly work? Can you give ambush to one unit and it will have the bonus for the entire mission?

Can you combine these effects? For example, giving ambush command and then stand ground command?

Do these values work with mods too?

greetings,

Stanenberg