Reality Mapping Tryouts

[Mat]

Hello Everyone!

inspired by gagarin with his Map he showed us the last days i really wanna start a serious discussion about Maps based on real Situations.
I already tried out a lot in this Sector and i wanna start a Discussion about it and also share my knowledge here.

I am working on the Campaign TBOH and i made researches for more than 5 Years in Archives about it. My Plan is to arrange Maps the closest i can in Relation to Original Action Reports.

Problem: You will not find in any case a perfect Aerial Photo or a perfect Map made in the year it happened.

But that shouldnt be a serious reason to become a Nerd and stop it just for the Reason it will not be 1:1  and 101%
Lets work Professional.

What do we need to arrange a Map based on a real Battlefield Situation?

  -Knowledge about the Battle (Strenght of Troops, Positions per day/hour/ and so on)
  -Topographic Map (Google Maps will help if no other Map available)
  -in best case a Military Aerial Photo taken by a Reconnaissance Plane

My First Map that will be available after i finished my work on the Mod will be the Sitiuation when the US Forces swept southeast from the Rhine after the frontlines broke in March 45 and reached the Neckar River at heilbronn where the Germans attempt to make a last stand.


-1) First Thing i did was to recover the Situation in German Archives and the well documented Action Reports by the US 100Th Div.
-2) i found a bigsize Topographic Map of the whole Region (!!) i can use for every Map of the whole campaign Topo Heilbronn
-3) i calculated the Battlefield Coordinates into The Mapeditor Squares ( Major Pain / Range Calculator! ) and

        -1) created Heights
        -2) created the little Leinriver running into the big Neckar
        -3) created all Roads
        -4) placed all Buildings (for me Position is important, you will never rebuild something like that into original)
        -5) made inspiring Thoughts about what could make the map better for playing and added/removed or basically changed some Things.
Edit:c (You really need a Feeling for recognizing the Point it is the time to stop working on things that will cost you only time and frustrate you, just to made it "peferct")


We can see that this is not perfect. (The Neckar River shouldnt be in grid and many other things)
From this Point of Mapcreating on i only work on the gameplay and the look itself.

I tried this on various Maps and it works everytime in the same way, it doesnt take  more time for me than a fantasy Map, its more easy i think because the structure of everything is already given.

With that you as a Player will face conditions without "Balance" which is very good.
You are forced to make decisions and use the Terrain!

I tested this for several Months and the next step will be to learn LUA and let this 2 Things come together.

[Mat]

Heres a inside view in Mapeditor

[tedi88]

Personally I like realistic maps, whether they are done in scale 25:1 or 1:1 is of no importance.

However two most annoying things from my experience when it comes to realistic maps is:

1.Quote: "-Knowledge about the Battle (Strenght of Troops, Positions per day/hour/ and so on)" end quote. - finding a good objective source of information if you don't have primary sources - namely battle reports (though they also tend to be somewhat unreliable)

2. Compromises when making city/urban maps. This is doubly true when it comes to heights, unless you simulate them using objects (which is tricky) it's pretty hard to make them precise.

Just throwing out my 2 cents. In any case Mat , your map looks good.

[ariete]

wow .. it's already that location.

[Mat]

-1) Thats true, it needed some Time until i learned how to read a Action Report which shows something less like a Puzzlepart hard to translate, even if you served in army for several Years.
-2) This is very easy for me maybe because i never stop to keep in mind my major target in mapping - the Battle itself;)

Thanks for your kind words

[Mat]

The Heights are very simple to create, i read the Tutorial of BKP Forums which took me 3mins and directly after i worked 30mins to create all Heights on the Map which has been real Fun!

[tedi88]

I would disagree regarding the heights.

They aren't a problem if we are talking about semi-urban or regular open field maps. Like you have shown above.

I'm talking about pure urban maps. In that case, heights present the problem because they make the city look silly. There are ways to avoid this, like using some terrain objects to create an illusion of it, but creating a realistic looking height using the generator and still keeping the buildings somewhat nice is pretty tough thing to do.

[Stanenberg]

When it comes to the eastern front, the enormous distances are always a problem with exact historical maps .

On the west front in Normandy or Germany it works a lot better, although I like a mix between historical correctness and playability, as some real-life movement possibilities are not available in the BK engine.

[Mat]

May 17, 2015 20:38:23 GMT 1 tedi88 said:

Youre right, i tried it out and it looks really weird!

Stanenberg: agree, playability and a good gameplay has to be superior to any historical correctness!

[gagarin]

The map is excellent. Very similar to the original map.
For historical maps (historical events) is very difficult to choose the "golden center" between historicity and interesting gameplay.

Height in the game - my opinion is that this is one big drawback of the game engine.It does not take into account the lay of land. The heights of influence (with certain settings in "consts") only for visibility. But nothing can be done against the shots through, through the "hill".
But there is nothing to do with the old man - age.

[Mat]

Thank you, Gagarin

Here you can see the Situation of April 2, 1945

A) 9Miles North unknown Elements of the Germans blocked several Towns with heavy Resistance
B)The Left Flank lay unprotected open along the Neckar to the South because the French Army lagged behind
C) 7th Army Command ordered Gen Burress to establish a Bridgehead and send one Company of Riflemen across the River
The Us Army then lost 3 Sherman Tanks and numerous GIs inflicted by SS Panzergrens who were ordered to keep one Bridge above the Neckar open for backflooding German Troops

3) That has been the surrounding way the US Forces finally battled their way to the River

[tedi88]

May 17, 2015 22:45:20 GMT 1 gagarin said:

The map is excellent. Very similar to the original map.
For historical maps (historical events) is very difficult to choose the "golden center" between historicity and interesting gameplay.

But there is nothing to do with the old man - age.

Both statements are 100% true. 

One of the problem with historical maps is whether you want to have a single large map or several smaller maps. Both methods have their good and bad sides. I still believe that single large map, can be more accurate but it's much harder to make it fun.

When you have several smaller maps it's easier to make them more interesting because you basically map different phases of the battle separately. Downside is - you loose the scope of the battle - especially if it's a large battle. 

I would, however, mention one more thing - BK engine is excellent with this. It's up to the mapper whether he'll create a more focused smaller map or a large-scale battle. This is something that is seldom encountered in strategy games. 

[gagarin]

For large maps you need a lot of work with the script. The player will play it for a long time - and to do so during the passage of the entire map the player is not bored. And that requires a lot of effort.
Small card also interesting, especially if they are combined into a single chapter. Some easier to play in a small-sized card (due to the limited free time). Damn, but sometimes a small card can be done on a long pass.

[Mat]

[Mat]

I found this Map about the Kessel von Halbe ´45 and the Breakout of 9th Army
Maybe someone will make a Chapter or Map about and use it for this.