Ocelo
General
Map Artist/Eastern Front enthusiast
Posts: 1,400
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Post by Ocelo on Mar 16, 2012 23:16:26 GMT 1
I seriously doubt that last statement Louis. I don't see anything but Churchill's complaints that would stand up in the way of Poland and the Balkans being taken over by a force of a dozen million or so; probably chunks of Germany as well. Although it could theoretically out-produce the USSR and recruit some Gerries on its side, waging such a war over eastern/central europe would be politically stupid for the US.
I also doubt Rommel's authority would be enough to dismantle the entire Nazi regime.
Anyways, different topic. Your question, MP.
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Post by Major Pain on Mar 16, 2012 23:20:12 GMT 1
Yeah... I didn't state the part about the possible capitulation... I really enjoyed that, you should ask another. Besides I can't ask half a question when I could only answer half a question.  Please proceeed sir... I'll stand down on the next one... until some time goes by (day or two if it lasts that long).  |
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Post by LouisXIV on Mar 18, 2012 17:43:50 GMT 1
If Rommel surrendered the whole of the 7th Army - which by then included the best parts of the 15th Army - there would not be much to stop the western Allies from being on the Rhine by the end of August. Also remember that the forces that were reconstituted to hold the Seigfreid line after the Falaise battles were mostly the remnants of the 7th and 15th Armies. What would there be to stop the Anglo-Americans from overrunning most of Germany by the end of 1944 while the Soviets were still fighting in Poland?
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tedi88
General
Blitzkrieg State Prosecutor
Posts: 1,228 
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Post by tedi88 on Mar 18, 2012 21:28:38 GMT 1
Nothing. But I would also take into account the fact that Allies believed that National Redoubt was more stronger than it actually was (if it existed in any effective capacity).
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Post by LouisXIV on Mar 19, 2012 14:38:47 GMT 1
If I remember correctly, the Allies didn't even hear about the National Redoubt until the spring of 1945, so I don't think it would have entered into their calculations.
I have to wonder where this National Redoubt myth originated from. Apparently the western Allies knew a lot more about its details than the Nazis ever planned. Was this some kind of plant by the Nazis' Abwehr?
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Post by LouisXIV on Mar 19, 2012 14:46:05 GMT 1
Okay, here is an interesting one:
On what date did the London Times first announce the Allied breakout from the Normandy bridgehead?
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tedi88
General
Blitzkrieg State Prosecutor
Posts: 1,228
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Post by tedi88 on Mar 19, 2012 20:27:33 GMT 1
Well according to some sources the information about the redoubt came from rumors spread by both Abwehr and SD. However it is also important to take into the account the fact that it seemed a logical conclusion.
Regarding the question I don't really know so i will take a guess 7th of August?
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Post by LouisXIV on Mar 21, 2012 13:48:38 GMT 1
I don't really know so i will take a guess 7th of August?
It's specifically mentioned in at least one of my history books, for a good reason that is an important indicator of the history of the fighting there. |
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tedi88
General
Blitzkrieg State Prosecutor
Posts: 1,228
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Post by tedi88 on Mar 21, 2012 19:50:52 GMT 1
27th of July?
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Post by LouisXIV on Mar 21, 2012 19:51:40 GMT 1
Hint: It was before the actual breakout. If you know the reason, you know when.
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tedi88
General
Blitzkrieg State Prosecutor
Posts: 1,228
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Post by tedi88 on Mar 21, 2012 20:33:23 GMT 1
12th of June? If not I give up. ;D
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Post by Major Pain on Mar 21, 2012 21:14:36 GMT 1
The breakout began on July 25 1944. There was an attempt to start on the 24th but early action lead to a near disaster after air support was turned back due to weather conditions.
In the weeks leading to the breakout, several operations were launch to remove or secure specific areas:
Operation Goodwood (July 18, 1944) to secure Caen.
Operation Atlantic (July 18, 1944) to strengthen Allied control of the Orne River and take Verrières Ridge.
Bradley's army secured the vital heights of Saint-Lô, July 18th, 1944.
I have not found the specific reason as you suggest. But I found a single reference about a story on July 19th by a reporter that had suggested that the breakout was well underway.
You'd think something as big as this would be easily marked in the vast historical records. But apparently, someone was asleep that day at the London Times. Nevertheless, they jumped the gun... which caused a little heartburn for Germans who were waiting for it...
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Post by LouisXIV on Mar 21, 2012 22:18:06 GMT 1
Re: Operation Goodwood:
At 16:40 on July 18th Montgomery's headquarters issued a press communique that said: "Early this morning British and Canadian troops of the Second Army attacked and broke through into the area east of the Orne and south-east of Caen. Heavy fighting continues. General Montgomery is well satisfied with the progress made in the first day's fighting of the battle."
Some press journalist got a sight of his message at the same time to SHAEF that said, "Armoured divisions now operating in the open country to the south and south-west of Caen."
The London Times headline for July 19th read:
SECOND ARMY BREAKS THROUGH
ARMOURED FORCES REACH OPEN COUNTRY
GENERAL MONTGOMERY WELL SATISFIED
You are close enough. Proceed, Colonel.
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Post by Major Pain on Mar 22, 2012 0:10:28 GMT 1
What is this?  |
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Post by LouisXIV on Mar 22, 2012 1:55:30 GMT 1
Russian
That looks like a 45mm Russian gun put onto a farm tractor that has had some armour grafted onto it.
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