The prone position and regular infantry

[Major Johnson]

I know that the prone position helps protection-wise, but what about being detected??  I've had a couple of missions where it would have been nice to use a squad of infantry to infiltrate enemy lines to take out some defensive positions, but it appears that whether regular infantry is prone or not, they are still detected at the same distance as if they were standing upright.  Is there a stealth factor with the prone position with regular infantry as there is with a sniper??

[tedi88]

Mar 12, 2015 15:05:29 GMT 1 Major Johnson said:

I know that the prone position helps protection-wise, but what about being detected??  I've had a couple of missions where it would have been nice to use a squad of infantry to infiltrate enemy lines to take out some defensive positions, but it appears that whether regular infantry is prone or not, they are still detected at the same distance as if they were standing upright.  Is there a stealth factor with the prone position with regular infantry as there is with a sniper??

In regular BK, there is little to no difference. 

In BH/RT Paratroopers can sneak (like snipers), however I believe Herr Kodax has tested this behavior and came to the conclusion that it has no effect. 

Mods on the other hand handle this differently, but again it depends which mod.

Hope it helps,

[Major Johnson]

Thanks for that response. I guess I should have stated I'm playing the Stalingrad expansion, but I would think that it's considered regular BK. But you would think there would be a little bit of a stealth factor, even for regular infantry, and the fewer the higher the stealth factor.

It seems to me that the biggest advantage a sniper has (at least in Stalingrad) is the range of his rifle. As long as I'm not in range of the enemy I can pick them off for as long as the ammo holds out.

[Major Pain]

One Formation that Regular Squads usually DO NOT have is the SNEAK.  SNEAK = Stealth, Period!

SNEAK should be added to all Squads, because it was a true factor during WAR.   All of my new Infantry and Squads have this option...  but my Squads are much more versatile than original BK or Add-on Infantry.  I don't expect all infantry will be changed for mine, but my goal was to make infantry more powerful and a larger factor in missions.  Boots on the ground take ground,   and win wars.   Armor and Aircraft are the Shock Units.  The so-called Shock and Awe effect.

The power of Blitzkrieg was its overwhelming ability to over-run strong defensive positions.   But it was still infantry that took and held the ground.   Tanks move on but they cannot hold positions without a very good supply chain... and that is where the infantry must come in a secure the ground.

About the prone position.   This position should make it harder to hit the soldier.   But in BK, we ignore little things like wind, trees, and other things that might help provide cover to the prone soldier.   We ignore that this soldier is likely looking for a low spot or a spot that will give him some measure of protection.  


We have a shooters value that should become a little less effective in this situation...  that is the shooters weapon Dispersion.     Also, the value for the soldiers hide value which should increase slightly, his camouflage.   But some squads do not account for this and should be examined and adjusted.

So what does a prone solder gain by laying down?

Here are the Bonuses:

LieFlag="2" <----------------------- This tells the game to make the Squad lay down.
SpeedBonus="1" <----------------   The Squad gains +1 Speed, crawling...  and moving to an offensive posture.
DispersionBonus="0.7"<----------  The Squad gains 0.7 accuracy on their weapons.
FireRateBonus="0.7"<--------------  The Squad gains 0.7 on rate of firing weapons.
RelaxTimeBonus="0.7" <----------- The Squad Relax Time between Aiming and Firing Weapons is reduced .7
CoverBonus="0.9" <--------------- The Squad gains 0.9 Cover Bonus... making them harder to spot.
VisibleBonus="1">   <--------------- The Squad is less Visible... gain +1.

Herr Kodax has expanded my work and we are still trying to solve some of the mystery on these values, and what they mean.  But he perhaps has the best grasp on understanding this.     My original theory was did not account for what Kodax has discovered as actual unique values we were not aware of before.  So read what Kodax has stated on this on his topic. 


Now lets look at what a SNEAKing Squad gains...

LieFlag="2"
SpeedBonus="1"
DispersionBonus="1"
FireRateBonus="1.1"
RelaxTimeBonus="1.1"
CoverBonus="1"
VisibleBonus="1">



You can compare the values and quickly see that this Squad has a better bonuses.   Stealth is factored in, much like the Sniper.  But, the Sniper still has some advantages that a Squad cannot  have.   Those advantages come into play because he is a Sniper, which is the only infantry unit that has it's own Type.  It is the assignment to this Sniper Type that makes the unit unique.

But any Squad can be given the SNEAK Command, and should.

The above data is taken from the German_para_sneak Squad.  One of the ways to learn or break into the code is to study units differences against the similarities.   This offer clues to helping you understand how things work.

Few people have tried to understand the inner-workings of the game.  Most of us would rather play than to study things like this.  But I have long preached that all of the players should try to seek answers.   This is how we make the game better.   Some of us have been studying for many years, and while we understand a vast amount of the code and how the game works, we have not found all of the answers.

The purpose of this forum is to share our knowledge with each other.  And when Guys like Herr Kodax one day just start digging into some of the behind the scene stuff... it makes my day.   For many years there were only a few of us working on these kinds of issues.   And for a couple years I was the only one still at it.   Now more of you are working toward a common understanding.   I urge still more of you to take the challenge.  I and others will share what we already know, and help you get started.  Some of my Documents that can be found on my MediaFire Page are there for this purpose.    

In many ways this is a biology lab... except there is no biology.   But we are learning, and we are dissecting this game.  If more of us work on solutions, the faster we learn and answer the questions.  We can learn by experimenting, debating, and urging each other to push ahead.


And now my opinion of the original BK Squads.  

They are stupid...      

What Army has Squads that stand in Formation during a battle?  
Are they trained to be nothing but cannon fodder?  

They are not anything but targets.   And they are far too weak to be effective in a battle when facing armor and artillery.   They absolutely do not have any ability to hide from any enemy they can see.   

But this in itself does not mean the game is a bad game... the game is excellent...

So what did NIVAL do right?  

They gave us the ability to make changes.  

So do it guys... Do not settle for weak infantry!  Make them matter!


I glad to see some of you working on Infantry Squads.  When I complete my work on the Sprites with new animations, I hope you guys will use them and get rid of these damn standing soldiers that offer their butts as a target.  Mine have the ability to kneel or squat in a defensive posture... but they also have the ability to instantly go on the offensive.   

Think about this for a minute.   Those of you that go out into the woods or forest understand that you cannot possible see everything out there because of the trees and foliage.   if you are just walking through, you are looking at your path, perhaps left and right, but unless you are hunting, you are not trying to stay quiet or walk gingerly and stealth like.  Well if you're a soldier, a walk in the woods can mean your death if you do not walk easy and watch for anything and everything.

In BK, our soldiers are at a disadvantage because they walk along blindly.   Why?   How many times have you hidden from a friend in the woods?  How easy was it?     Did you jump out to startle them?   Well that could as easily been a bullet or incoming shell from a 155mm gun.   And that is the problem with BK Infantry.

My goal is to create Infantry that acts like infantry.  They should be able to sneak up on positions, until someone makes a stupid mistake or the weapons start barking.   Should a soldier be able to sneak up on a tank?   In BK, tanks have 360 degree eyes and detection.   This is wrong.   How many true story accounts have you read about a soldier sneaking up on a tank and planting a charge or throwing a grenade into an open hatch?    We cannot do that unless we rebuild the way this works in BK.



Are there any Artist that wish to learn how Infantry Sprites work and have a desire to spend many hours doing painstaking work designing new Sprites?  Contact me and I'll teach you...  I need help...  and I need to pass this knowledge on to many of you or it will be lost when I'm gone.  Von Osten is the only other guy that has a good grasp on this...   and you have all seen his talents at work...



Sorry, sometimes I just have to climb on my soapbox and vent.  That is all for today...

Thank you for reading and any assistance you wish to offer.

[Stanenberg]

Sounds very good Major! You describe the infantry I always wanted in bk

[Major Johnson]

MP,
Will the infantry in BK Generation 2 be as you envision??

[Major Pain]

Yes sir...  all of the Infantry will be what I and others create in this format.   I am expanding formations and commands for infantry.  We have them... we must use them.  My goal is to focus on the tactical level of the game.   The capability is already there, but very few use it to the maximum advantage.   

I'm getting ready to post a GEN II Update that will go into some depth about changes.   Look for it soon.

[Mascarenhas2]

Great. I'll be glad to know about the state of it.

[Herr Kodax]

Major, much apologies, but I'm going to be an ass. Again.

Mar 13, 2015 6:31:42 GMT 1 Major Pain said:

Here are the Bonuses:

LieFlag="2" <----------------------- This tells the game to make the Squad lay down.
SpeedBonus="1" <---------------- The Squad gains +1 Speed, crawling... and moving to an offensive posture.
DispersionBonus="0.7"<---------- The Squad gains 0.7 accuracy on their weapons.
FireRateBonus="0.7"<-------------- The Squad gains 0.7 on rate of firing weapons.
RelaxTimeBonus="0.7" <----------- The Squad Relax Time between Aiming and Firing Weapons is reduced .7
CoverBonus="0.9" <--------------- The Squad gains 0.9 Cover Bonus... making them harder to spot.
VisibleBonus="1"> <--------------- The Squad is less Visible... gain +1.

Bonuses in general: They are multipliers, you do not add. Think of 1 as 100% of whatever the bonus interacts with, so we have:

SpeedBonus=1 means the unit moves at 100% speed in that formation.
-Example: SMG guy has Speed=6, and is moving in default formation with Speedbonus = 1. He moves at 6 speed. Now he changes at aggresive formation, which has the Speedbonus set at - say - 1.8. Now he moves at Seep x Speedbonus = 6 x 1.8 = 10.8 max speed. It is not +1 (6+1=7) etc.

Dispersionbonus: Again, it works like that - Dispersion x DispersionBonus, not D + Db. I have some data on how accuracy works (kinda), but I'm still not pleased enough to release anything yet on that subject.

FireRateBonus: Same as above, but I would always leave it to '1', mainly because no matter how much experience you have, you can't make your gun shoot bullets faster. Imagine the BAR. Rate of fire is 500 rpm. If you change the FireRateBonus to - say - 1.5, then you have a BAR firing 1.5 x 500 = 750 rounds per minute. Daaaayumn!

RelaxTimeBonus = 0.7: Again, multiplier. Say, you have set the relax time (time between each shot/burst) in your mosin at 5 (seconds). 0.7 RelaxTimeBonus means 5 x 0.7= 3.5 secs.

CoverBonus=0.9: Doeasn't have to do with the camo ability of the soldiers, but how exposed they are to gunfire. 0.9 means a rifle with 65% chance to hit a guy in formation with Cb=1, now has 0.65 x 0.9 = 0.585 or 58.5% chance to hit a guy in formation with Cb = 0.9 (standing formations, once the dude hits the ground, LyingSoldierCover takes over, and interacts with whatever Cb is set at lying formation).

VisibleBonus: Multiplier used in conjuction with a unit's Sight. again, multiply, not add.


Quoting myself (shamelessly) below:

Jan 3, 2015 14:25:00 GMT 1 Herr Kodax said:

As said befor, I have worked on the subject, so I *think* I know the ropes here. I have't tried setting them below 0, but anything below 1 means decreased parameter. Take my version of aggressive stance for example.
-Visiblebonus: 0.75 - meaning the units in the squad lose 25% of their sight when in aggressive stance.
-Coverbonus: 0.5 - meaning they are about 50% less likely to get shot
-Relaxtimebonus: 0.7 - meaning the time between each shot (or burst) is reduced by 30%
-Firratebonus: 1 - attacking (or doing whatever) does not make the gun in your hands shoot bullets faster or slower (for SMGs/MGs)
-Dispersionbonus: 1.35 - Units in a squad in aggressive stands are 35% more inaccuate with their shots.
-Speedbonus: 2 - Twice the speed for a successful charge.
-Lieflag: 1 - You can't charge while on your belly. Always standing.

Which makes some sense (in my books at least). While charging and in the shit, you are not fully aware of your surroundings (reduced vision), others can't aim at you easily because you are running (Coverbonus reduction) and you are likely to shoot more often (reduced relax time), but without aiming much (increased dispersion). It's still WiP though, and prone to future changes.

I have also tested this using dispersion = 0 (100% accuracy), and Cb=0.5. The results are more than amazing, I'll show them to you whem I get the chance Major.

Mar 13, 2015 6:31:42 GMT 1 Major Pain said:

SNEAK should be added to all Squads

Totally agree, and was in my plans, but will create tons of problens unless we can understand how to make the camo go away as soon as the soldiers start shooting. Currently, I can calculate the distance a soldier can be spotted by other units (camo/sight/sightpower), but cannot find out how to make a sneaky shooter to be spotted at ranges beyond 30. I believe we have discussed it Major. I couldn't figure it out despite my best efforts. Much shame.

Mar 13, 2015 6:31:42 GMT 1 Major Pain said:

Should a soldier be able to sneak up on a tank? In BK, tanks have 360 degree eyes and detection.

360 degrees sight is totally wrong, but you can have infantry sneaking on tanks by giving them crappy SightPower.

More on sights and camo here, for anyone interested.
blitzsrbija.proboards.com/thread/1756/understanding-sight-sightpower-camouflage

[Major Pain]

Herr Kodak and I have been having an ongoing discussion as he has taken over my research on some of these parameters and squad bonuses.

He has been doing an incredible amount of work that does change our/my original perception and understanding.

I am very impressed with his research and hope he solves the questions we have long hoped to answer

So as he continues to dig deep into these formulas and functions in the code, keep in mind that my data and statements or opinions are subject to change as we are provided with additional data.

Kodax, you should not be concerned about correcting my statements when you provide updated information based on your research. We all are striving to present the best information we possibly can.

Thank you for adding to this discussion.

[Deleted]

Interesting discussion!
I still want the health Bars removed.. then the use of camo units/infantry makes real sense.

[Major Pain]

I have found the code that handles that... but be careful what you ask for...  if the enemy can't see it... you can't either...  Actually the health bar would only give away a sniper when playing multiplayer.   The AI  does not look for it, just does not care... so this is something that could be removed but I think it might handicap the Human Player more than anything else...  We can change the color to something a little different perhaps.

And this can be done in BK 1.2...   The source code is in the OPEN Code section.   It just goes by a different ID name, which makes it hard to locate.  When I get time I'll do a test and post results and screenshot.

[Herr Kodax]

Best solution would be to have some kind of tutorial, so everyone can turn them on/off to their liking. If that is possible, of course.

[Major Pain]

I agree... Tutorials are the best method of sharing information like this.


As for turning these options on or off... that is up to the designer I suppose.  The key to understanding this stuff is so we create Infantry and Squads that make sense.   While my goal is to move toward smarter and stronger infantry, I do not want to see super-soldiers...  they have to absolutely be as accurate as possible.

I will be glad to assist you in putting a tutorial together as we/you continue to solve this...  


********************************************************************************************


By the way, I think I have located the formula tables for some of this, maybe all of it.   The data does not use any of our standard known names, but pulls data from the const.xml as well as the Squads and Element Tables.   So hopefully I can reconstruct how these work in much more detail soon.  But Kodax is on the right track...  his research seems to prove it...  So Bully, BULLY for him...    

I borrowed 'Bully' from Teddy Roosevelt...  the 26th President of the US and veteran hero of the Rough Riders and their charge on San Juan Hill (Kettle Hill).  During that era, the word Bully became a word meaning praise.  Today it is not often heard or sometimes used rather sarcastically.  Since I borrowed from Teddy, I am using his context as I always have.

I usually do not go into this much detail describing my use of words, but as a Student of History, I understand that words sometimes change meanings without much thought during the generational changes.   But I'm old school and a traditionalist and rely on the teachings of the Masters from the past.   I'm not so inclined to try to listen to modern historians that try to rewrite history based on their own agendas and political ideology.

Continuing...


The Element Tables hold all of the data and parameters for every model/object as they are Registered by the objects.xml and modobjects.xml.   The Element Table is accessed by the Global Data Tables as the game collects the data.  

During the process, a Lookup Table links all of the data together by a unique ID for each object.  Each individual tank and truck for example has it's own unique data in the Global Data table, but the type of units and their base parameters are the only thing the Element Tables Collect.  

The way it works is the Global Data Table Stores each units by a Unique ID along with their specific data.   When the game needs to collect the rest of the units data, defined base HP, ammo or other information, it looks at the Element Table... then as the unit takes damage, the Global Data table updates.  


So what I had long believed about the game seems to be true.  I came to this conclusion since maps using Core Units,  maintained the individual core data from map to map.  The game also keeps track of enemy killed and player units killed, and the number each side kills.   As well it stores how many guns were captured and how much resource/resupply used.  Look at this sometime to verify what I'm saying.   My conclusion was there had to be a Data table that stored individual unit/object data.     That has already been located in the Front End Code, but I only found the Element table Collection Code in the last few days.

So why is this important?   if we ever decide that we wish to give individual tanks their own IDs and unique properties, we do not have to write new code... we only have to manipulate the code that is already being collected.  We currently do not have that option, but it very much looks like a link code added into the Open Code can work for BK 1.2 and in GEN II.      Of course, that means a lot more folders of the same tanks and SPGs each with their own data.   Other games have done this, but do not have the tactical ability of BK 1.  

The BK Game Engine (Enigma) still holds up and is still better that most out there.  It was way ahead of its time.   We can still ramp it up and add to the Tactical Level of the game.   I don't want to do what led to BK 2, but perhaps some of the other stuff can be turned on...  after-all, the code for BK-2 is mostly intact in BK 1.2.   Very little was added for BK 2.  

Each day I am amazed by what I find in the 15,000 lines of base code and 23,000 lines of Open Code.    It just takes time to look at it and keep an open mind about what I am looking at.   The code rarely uses the same keywords as what we are used to, and many times you are only looking at what is the Element ID data.   As I begin to understand and document the Element data, it becomes much clearer what the original Code Writers were thinking.

[Deleted]

Mar 19, 2015 10:07:58 GMT 1 Major Pain said:

I have found the code that handles that... but be careful what you ask for...  if the enemy can't see it... you can't either...  Actually the health bar would only give away a sniper when playing multiplayer.   The AI  does not look for it, just does not care... so this is something that could be removed but I think it might handicap the Human Player more than anything else...  We can change the color to something a little different perhaps.

And this can be done in BK 1.2...   The source code is in the OPEN Code section.   It just goes by a different ID name, which makes it hard to locate.  When I get time I'll do a test and post results and screenshot.

Well for me it would be quite interesting without those treaturous healthbars, but I can understand not everyone would be charmed by the  extra handicap it would give. But the realism would be improved, and the recolouring of uniforms and camouflage for units will make more sense.
So I really would like to see this option, if possible..